Draft talk:Suicide of Fat Cat

Title

@TheGreatPeng: Hi. I would like to say that the title may be a bit strange for native speakers, and I note that there is little English media coverage of this story yet, but if it is reported perhaps a name change could be considered. ときさき くるみ ^{not because they are easy, but because they are hard} 12:12, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

@Tokisaki Kurumi Thanks for your work on this article. Actually, the original title was changed by a native editor to the current one. However, I believe the current title is more formal. You can see an example title in Suicide of Rehtaeh Parsons. Please advise if you have any opinions on the name change for this article. TheGreatPeng (talk) 13:11, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

@TheGreatPeng: Hi. What I'm actually talking about isn't the "Suicide" issue, it's the "Fat Cat" issue. I saw the log of the name change, but considered that more formal English-language media might use other names - I mean, the current title could be misinterpreted as a cat committing suicide - and that's why I brought it up. ときさき くるみ ^{not because they are easy, but because they are hard} 13:14, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

@Tokisaki Kurumi Thank you for your assistance with this. If you don't mind, I plan to submit it for DYK. Could you please consider one DYK hook for me? Best regards. TheGreatPeng (talk) 14:58, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

@TheGreatPeng: Technically, all hooks in the English Wikipedia must be derived from references. I would suggest hooking up with cats and McDonald's. ときさき くるみ ^{not because they are easy, but because they are hard} 15:06, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

@TheGreatPeng: I looked up the claim about being a lesbian on the internet and found that the claim is currently not widely substantiated, and that it would be better to attribute it. ときさき くるみ ^{not because they are easy, but because they are hard} 15:39, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

Sorry, I can't find any reliable source to support this claim. TheGreatPeng (talk) 16:24, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

I found this [1] from a Vietnamese newspaper called Sao Star. TheGreatPeng (talk) 16:48, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

I saw a similar statement from SET News yesterday, but I really don't think it's a good idea at the moment. ときさき くるみ ^{not because they are easy, but because they are hard} 18:20, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

@TheGreatPeng: There is also the problem that the current version often does not match the references, e.g. the reference in the first paragraph of the background does not mention at all things such as the rejection of cohabitation advice and the inability to provide emotional value (although these are mentioned in other references). I'm considering further changes on this, but I'm not sure I have enough energy these days. ときさき くるみ ^{not because they are easy, but because they are hard} 18:27, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

@Tokisaki Kurumi The majority of the version has been translated from the Chinese Wikipedia, so there may be some errors. Don't take the references too seriously, and I added extra references even though one reference is more than enough to support this article. TheGreatPeng (talk) 08:41, 11 May 2024 (UTC)

@TheGreatPeng: Well no, I do take Wikipedia:V as THE PRIMARY. ときさき くるみ ^{not because they are easy, but because they are hard} 09:37, 11 May 2024 (UTC)

@Tokisaki Kurumi and TheGreatPeng: If there are no English sources, then I suggest renaming the title to Pinyin romanization but without the diacritics: "Suicide of Pang Mao". This avoids unofficial translation issues, for example which synonym to use. I wouldn't use his real name due to WP:COMMONNAME. ~~lol1VNIO (I made a mistake? talk to me) 17:15, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

Strong using 'Fat Cat' name is on [2]. But I agree with your suggestion. Thank you. TheGreatPeng (talk) 17:25, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for your swift response @TheGreatPeng: I've found more reliable English sources VOI.ID and Tuoi Tre that primarily use Fat Cat. With these, I don't think there are any issues with either title. So I would retain Fat Cat . ~~lol1VNIO (I made a mistake? talk to me) 18:04, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

Personally, I don't think either of these sources would be that representative, but given that numerous more reputable media outlets (even the Sixth Tone or the SCMP) haven't reported it yet, I'm fine with it for now. ときさき くるみ ^{not because they are easy, but because they are hard} 18:18, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

Coverage

A newly registered user said, 'One of the information has been covered by any medium to major news organization.' Really? What a big joke! So, see

When "Fat Cat's Death" Dominates Hot Searches from Lianhe Zaobao, the largest Singaporean Chinese-language newspaper,

there is part 1–7 coverages from China Press, a major Malaysian Chinese-language newspaper,

The "Fat Cat" incident ferments; Chinese public opinion reflects on the bottom line of social morality from Radio Free Asia,

Takeout orders in memory of "Fat Cat" found to be empty or watered down, five catering chain brands apologize from The Paper, a major Chinese digital newspaper,

The Death of Player Fat Cat from Sin Chew Daily, a leading Chinese-language newspaper in Malaysia,

The death of an e-sports boy attracted much attention from netizens: it overshadowed the collapse of Meida Expressway from Deutsche Welle, a major German media,

The tragedy of the fat cat who committed suicide online, is it a relationship issue or a legal issue? from China Digital Times,

The "Fat Cat" incident suddenly became a trending topic on Weibo, and an extramarital affair was revealed from Sound of Hope, an international Chinese-language radio network,

McDonald's Vietnam apologizes for slogan mocking tragic death of Chinese man from VnExpress,

and many more in major media from Southeast Asia, such as [3], [4], [5], [6], [7].

Clearly a case of WP:IDONTLIKE. If you are not happy with these significant coverages, there are many more you can find yourself. Thanks TheGreatPeng (talk) 13:42, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

Requested move 16 May 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) – Hilst [talk] 16:28, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

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Suicide of Fat Cat → Suicide of Pangmao – Should use pinyin instead of free translation Coddlebean (talk) 01:42, 16 May 2024 (UTC) — Relisting. Safari Scribe^{Edits! Talk!} 04:11, 20 May 2024 (UTC) — Relisting. BilledMammal (talk) 05:03, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

None of the English sources mention "Pangmo". TheGreatPeng (talk) 07:19, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose: (what template is it to express opposing in en-wiki? {{orz}}) 'Fat Cat' is widely used.[8] After all, it is a simple nickname that doesn't have complex or deep connotations and that can be traslated into English nearly word by word without any argument. Even some geological proper names (like the Yellow River 黄河) are not translated with Pinyin but freely. 自由雨日 (talk) 03:35, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

The Straits Times fianlly reported his real name, Fat Cat, and also Pangmao. TheGreatPeng (talk) 09:00, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose. There's no compulsion to use pinyin in English Wikipedia as long as the English version conveys the full facts in an accurate way, and preferably includes the pinyin translation in parenthesis straight after the English naming lead-in. Ref ^(chew)(do) 18:46, 19 May 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose move to include "Pangmao" as that's used significantly less often than Fat Cat in English sources. I think it's worth thinking about potentially using "Liu Jie" as that does appear pretty often in sources but Fat Cat seems to be the commonname. Skynxnex (talk) 17:15, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

  Oppose using 'Liu Jie'. 'Liu Jie' apparently isn't even as often as 'Pangmao' (of course no mention 'Fat Cat'); and particularly in mainland China, you can't find his real name in any media. 自由雨日 (talk) 01:08, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

• Comment: A recent story in Sixth Tone, which WP:RSP considers reliable for non-political stories, uses "Pangmao" for most mentions of the subject. Zylostr (talk) 02:10, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

• Support: I don't think using sense-for-sense translation in this title is a proper way to present the event, especially when it comes to a person's name.

Also, there are lots of latest news reported 胖猫 as Pangmao 1 2

Another example is Zhemao hoaxes (折毛事件), the Wikipedian's name 折毛 was translated as "curled hair" but Zhemao Vitsuha (talk) 03:47, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

Hello Vitsuha, Thank you for your opinion. However, as a Chinese native speaker, I must say that '胖猫' is not like '折毛': the word (or phrase) '胖猫' in Chinese is very very simple and will be totally understood as 'fat cat' in Chiense without any other deep or diffrent meanings; but '折毛' sounds very very weird, which most Chiense speakers don't know what it wants to mean and will not understand as or associate with 'curled hair', and which is just like being combined with two Chinese characters totally randomly. 自由雨日 (talk) 04:20, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

@Vitsuha: Sorry, I didn't click your user page to see you are Chinese too when I sent the message above. But what I expounded above is still tenable. 自由雨日 (talk) 04:30, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

That's fine.

I would say that Chinese people have the inclination to do sense-for-sense translation, both from Foreign Language to Chinese and Chinese to other languages (mostly English), but actually it doesn't fit the tradition in English, and would be weird to read by English speaker. Moreover, it might cause ambiguity in the context.

Like in English, Fat Cat has other meanings, and it is a political term mostly to describe a rich political donor and lobbyist, which would cause confusions among English readers. Vitsuha (talk) 08:06, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for introducing the knowledge about translation (especially the other meanings of 'Fat Cat'), which I indeed didn't realize. If 'Fat Cat' had no other meaning (like '胖猫' in Chinese), I would still insist to use sense-for-sense translation; but as it does, it will indeed cause confusion. I have to say honestly, that transliterating (the way of translation itself) is weired to me, especially in Chiense, where I hate translated-by-sound words (especially long names with many syllables) and even wish most of proper names be translated freely (like Oxford '牛津'). 自由雨日 (talk) 08:47, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

Sure.

Because I'm also a Chinese speaker, so I also feel uncomfortable to read some words translated by their sounds, like those current days in Japan and Korea, like 如何评价“片假名是翻译界的毒瘤”？. Because the meaning of Chinese characters can be understood with their forms, which could not be achieved by English, and Chinese people do like to translate with words their meanings, and this would be useful in Chinese context, but not in Latin-alphabet based languages such as English and French.

Moreover, in my opinion, when it comes to a person or a place's name, even in Chinese, we should not translate by its meaning. You mentioned 牛津, which comes from Ox (牛) and ford (浅滩, 渡口), but do you know that the famous strait near Constantinople, Bosporus, could also be translated as 牛津, here I copied some texts from that article:

The name of the strait comes from the Ancient Greek Βόσπορος (Bósporos), which was folk-etymologised as βοὸς πόρος, i.e. "cattle strait" (or "Ox-ford"), from the genitive of boûs βοῦς 'ox, cattle' + poros πόρος 'passage', thus meaning 'cattle-passage', or 'cow passage'. This is a reference to the Greek mythological story of Io, who was transformed into a cow and condemned to wander the Earth until she crossed the Bosporus, where she met the Titan Prometheus, who comforted her by telling her that she would be restored to human form by Zeus and become the ancestor of the greatest of all heroes, Heracles (Hercules).

So practically in Chinese we can translate 博斯普鲁斯海峡 as 牛津海峡, we did not do this and this did not cause ambiguity is because University of Oxford is too famous, and we did not translate Bosporus by its meaning. Vitsuha (talk) 09:42, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose: "Fat Cat" makes the article more accessible to international readers, and a handful of cited English-language sources err on the side of this translation. Pinyin translation has already been given consideration parenthetically. Nineteen Ninety-Four guy (talk) 09:17, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose: 显然应该使用fat cat，这毫无疑问。这是2个极其常用的意向组合而成的短语，没有任何音译的必要。就像我极其反对日语把一切外来名词都弄成片假名一样，“全是片假名，鬼看得懂啊”。意译增加交流便利程度，意译万岁，“片假名”是坏文明。 [Obviously, fat cat should be used, no doubt about it. This is a phrase composed of two very common intentions, and there is no need for any transliteration. Just like I am extremely opposed to the Japanese language turning all foreign nouns into katakana, "It's all katakana, no one can understand it." Free translation increases the convenience of communication, long live free translation, "katakana" is bad civilization] Aramiiss (talk) 11:50, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

References

It's natural for love to hurt

Cheating is natural in love and I've experienced it but it shouldn't be punishable by death yes I know he made a mistake we all make mistakes maybe that's why he did it because the girl didn't love him anymore that's why he didn't break up because he knew that maybe Fatcat will be hurt but the girl is wrong, she doesn't have the courage to tell him and why will he be sentenced to death if you are in his position, will you do that? 103.120.69.119 (talk) 09:38, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

UTC time of death

Will somebody please provide a UTC equivalent of the time of death in the lede so that article can account for the differences in time zones? Thanks Nineteen Ninety-Four guy (talk) 08:58, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

Updated

@The Account 2: Turns out that the fact the police exonerated the alleged culprit was missing in the article; I have included it. Nineteen Ninety-Four guy (talk) 08:49, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

Overweight tagging

I already explained that earlier version on May 9 was translated from Chinese Wikipedia's May 9 verson . It's not a violation and I already tagged {{translated}} on the talk page. I'm a student and have a job, so I don't have much time to work on Wikipedia like you do. If I have any free time, I need to find part-time jobs for my friends to help reduce unemployment. TheGreatPeng (talk) 20:21, 8 June 2024 (UTC)

Lots of problems with this article

On the one hand, there's cultural promulgation of misogyny in the form of gold digging tropes and mythology; on the other hand, there's an entirely different topic at work, namely the challenges of marriage in modern China and the social roles of men and women. I would like to suggest that the misogynistic narratives be rewritten and toned down so that they are not treated as self-evident, and that the subtopic of the pressures and challenges of marriage in modern China be raised to the dominant narrative instead. Nobody forced Fat Cat to give all of his money to Jane Doe. There needs to be an established discourse of personal responsibility here that rises above blaming others for their decisions. The way the article is currently written pushes the POV that the woman did something wrong. This may in fact be the dominant discourse in China, I don't know, but it should be written from a meta-narrative explaining if this is the case, not asserting Jane Doe is the perp. Viriditas (talk) 21:08, 8 June 2024 (UTC) Sorry, to track mud into your comment, but I've replaced her name with Jane Doe for privacy, Rjjⁱⁱⁱ (talk) 02:33, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

@Viriditas: I removed her name from the article. The partner and the family are not public figures. @Nineteen Ninety-Four guy: I've tried to scrub much bogus stuff off. I'm okay, if I've accidentally scrubbed too much content. Could you double-check me though, and make sure that I did not accidentally remove a tag that should still be present. Rjjⁱⁱⁱ (talk) 02:22, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

@Rjjiii: I think you've pretty much resolved those issues, many thanks. @Viriditas: I've tagged the article requesting an expert from related WikiProjects to expand the article. Nineteen Ninety-Four guy (talk) 05:13, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

@Rjjiii Thanks for cleaning up, translation of a other Wikipedia with a tag is a policy violation? TheGreatPeng (talk) 07:51, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

WAIT, you removed all detailed information added by many editors, including Nineteen Ninety-Four, and removed all brand names from the article. Even though some parts were not close paraphrasing, you removed a lot. I do not accept this rude and dramatic help from you. So, I choose to remove this article after having 400k viewers. TheGreatPeng (talk) 07:59, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

There's no need to create more drama, so I moved the article to draft. There's no need for further discussion or any food offering. Let me leave this chat.

Even international and all Chinese media reported her name, and all language Wikipedias featured her name, why does English Wikipedia hide her name? Your efforts are like water in sand, and now the article has nearly 400k reviewers. Hiding her name at the end of the movie is too late. I respect you, and you may be an incarnation of Guanyin for your mercy. Thank you, Guanyin pusa. _/\_ TheGreatPeng (talk) 08:19, 9 June 2024 (UTC)